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The Other Mrs Lawrence: Outrage Into Outcomes?
Iain Dale is off on one. Shaking his fist again at the world. Not only does he have a mole at The Mail, he also seems to share their sophisticated analysis of, you know, stuff:
IDD: The case of Philip Lawrence's murderer being allowed to stay in this country upon his release, because to deport him back to his native Italy would breach his human rights, surely has to call into question the future of this fault-ridden piece of legislation. 
LOL: Absolute tosh Iain. In every progressive sense of the word "native" Mr Chindamo is a native Brit. He came here as a small child, he does not speak Italian, and Thatcher and Major's Britain made him what he was 12 years ago. Which was a 15-year-old monster, albeit one with connections and influence on another dozen young outsiders. Graphic above from the Telegraph 1997. Click to enlarge.
IDD: Listening to Philip Lawrence's widow this morning, there can surely be few people who would argue that this Act has failed her and her two children.
LOL: They may feel that to be the case but as intelligent human beings they do not really believe it. Quite a difference.
IDD: What about THEIR human rights?
LOL: Indeed. Should any of the Lawrence family move abroad within the EU with a small child, should that child go astray in a context of that countries governance and culture, should the child commit a serious crime, and should the grown up child be rehabilitated, a model prisoner, released with huge potential to make a contribution to the life of the only country they know, they too would and should get that chance.
IDD: The right to live in peace and security and free from the fear that one day they might run into their beloved husband's and father's murderer.
LOL: This is an unfounded fear in various ways. This man - now 27 years of age and we're told showing great emotional intelligence and positive leadership AWAY FROM VIOLENCE - is not a threat to them. This man is not sworn to hound them, live in their street, rub their nose in anything.
In fact he is we're told completely rehabilitated and potentially someone who can make a contribution to reducing mayhem and murder in our streets. His charisma and power over others, apparently a huge problem in his former life, is now a potential boon to British Society.
He could very likely save other families from the pain and suffering he knows he has caused to the Lawrence family. By all accounts he has already been doing that by demonstrable mentoring of fellow prisoners.
Finally on this one ... There are say Fifty Four (count 'em) Fundamental Rights we all hope to enjoy. Clearly these have to be balanced one with another. They cannot all be upheld for everyone all of the time. Free speech is an area full of examples of the need to balance liberties and responsibilities. There is NO RIGHT in there to having someone that has wronged you moved to a different country. Suggesting there is is lazy commentary. It is poppycock.
IDD: I hope the Home Office will use their right to appeal this case, because the precedent it sets will be of huge importance.
LOL: They will do. But sadly Tony McNulty doesn't seem to understand this situation any better than the Tory commentati. Except perhaps that he must appeal to dog whistle enthusiasts rather than try to explain law and moral philosophy he does not understand himself.
IDD: PS Mr Chindamo was sentenced to life for Philip Lawrence's murder. He will be released after twelve years.
LOL: That does not actually seem absurd to me. Rich men are getting away with murder every day on building sites, railway sidings and in factories. They don't even go to prison for one day most times over heinous industrial accidents. Premeditated profit over care for fellow human beings. Not to mention murder with cars and 2-year-bans from driving. Arguably far more culpable than the rage and foolishness of youths excluded from society.
IDD: So a headmaster's life is only worth twelve years.
LOL: All equal under the law. With the possible exception of certain emergency services, and I'm not sold on that, this is as it should be. What are you implying Iain? That a headmaster's death is somehow worth a substantially longer sentence than any other category?
IDD: That is perhaps just as big a scandal as the abuse of the Human Rights Act.
LOL: Please explain. What abuse of the Human Rights Act?
There is an opportunity here Iain. Last week (13 August edition) The New Nation covered the huge potential benefit to British Society from turning round the "problem" of black boys and youth in general. (Also of course Bo-Jo's appalling profile when it comes to London's real issues.)
You may have seen Jesse Jackson on C4 News; and related coverage of a rather bizarre, yet beautiful all the same, attempt to turn youth onto US Treasury Bonds and the markets as a better place to take their risks than in drug gangs.
Prison is supposed to rehabilitate as well as punish. If rehabilitation has been achieved in this case and adverse experience can be turned to good use I'm all for it. That's life.
It would be fantastic to see Mrs Lawrence 1 and Mrs Lawrence 2 uniting in their grief and helping our society to get over these huge problems. If deporting Learco Chindamo is the answer you're asking completely the wrong question.
31 comments:
Chris
I enjoyed this.. I think. Have now added yo8u to my blogroll- sorry for this oversight, your blog is good reading.
Thanks Skipper. Like the ... I think there at the end. We'll have to wait and see where those thoughts lead.
Chris: Channel 4 have picked up on my blog post on this case and are sending a camera crew to do an interview this afternoon.
Good for you. Send them over here when they've finished! Did a couple of piecesto camera yesterday but no idea whether they got used. Obviously they were full of wit and wisdom and should have been top of the programmes!
What a wonderful fantasy world you live in. I can't even be bothered to argue as you will come up with the usual words……Tory, Racist, knee-jerk, whatever…….....Self satisfied, self congratulatory apologists like you make me sick. When are people like you going to realise we do not care about this shit’s human rights, or anyone else of the same ilk. Now congratulate yourselves on getting that old knee jerk reaction out of someone and I will sit back and wait for the inevitable backlash to the last 10 years.
"His charisma and power over others, apparently a huge problem in his former life, is now a potential boon to British Society."
So says his money grubbing lawyer.
Have you any idea how much the vast majority of the public hates views like yours?
Have you any idea how fragile your position really is?
Roll on the backlash
I Noticed the top poster clearly shows all the wionderful enrichment that the Labour party supports in Britain.
I agree Chindamo should not be sent to Italy as he should have been hanged when he turned 18.
Perhaps if one ounce of your liberal, Marxist, brain had any thought for the victims family you would not be so protective of murdering scum.
Solidly argued. Interesting that those who rant and rave just resort to bigotry in order to justify themselves. Leave them be. The health of societies is a larger issue than either one criminal or one victim.
Much of what you say I don't disagree with, but I was interested to note you say he was turned into what he was by Thatcher and Major's Britain, as if it was public policy which led him to put a knife through a man's heart (although curiously most other young people managed to refrain from doing so at that time).
So by the same measure, do you accept that the young men killing each other on the streets of South London, with too many this year to even begin naming, are a product of Blair and Brown's Britain? And isn't that a damning indictment of the last 10 years?
Chris: The Ch4 interview went well. The theme is about forgiveness. I am glad that someone in the MSM has got the message that the problem lies with Mrs Lawrence not coming to terms with forgiving her husband's killer. It only eats her up inside.
"Chris: The Ch4 interview went well. The theme is about forgiveness. I am glad that someone in the MSM has got the message that the problem lies with Mrs Lawrence not coming to terms with forgiving her husband's killer. It only eats her up inside."
What utterly patronising, unthinking crap, Mrs Lawrence wants as much closure as can be managed, which means getting this vicious piece of shit out of the country. And his Mafia father with him.
Nicely fisked Chris, your fist paragraph hits the nail on the head.
Absolute tosh Iain. In every progressive sense of the word "native" Mr Chindamo is a native Brit. He came here as a small child, he does not speak Italian, and Thatcher and Major's Britain made him what he was 12 years ago. Which was a 15-year-old monster, albeit one with connections and influence on another dozen young outsiders.
We have a judicial system determines how criminals are punished, and Chindamo has been punished accordingly for his crimes.
Deporting the man to a country where he can't even speak the language is ridiculous, what purpose is it supposed to serve?
Yes Rob I DO accept that - to an extent - it is society's responsibility when these things happen. Including when we have a Labour government.
Shock horror. Why wouldn't I?
But having lived through it and seeing the mud and venom flying from would be Thatcherite's in this particular case I do think it was worth pointing out the context in which these incidents occured.
And yes I must say that I think it was and is the case that Thatcher's takes on "society" i.e. that there is no such thing, and on "education" i.e. devil take the hindmost, and on "penalism" i.e. "throw away the key, there is no redemption" were responsible for things being far worse then than they could and should have been.
These things have continued of course but they have not accelerated as they might have.
Or as they have done in Thatcherite US of A.
The point about other youths NOT killing people is completely and utterly specious. Most don't, but a few do. Largely because they're excluded by the most. Big problem. And no easy solution.
Thanks Bondswoman.
And thanks to ranting fascist singular with multiple iDs or fascists plural for demonstrating so clearly how bullies and bruisers and those who know deep down they are wrong are COWARDS.
Use you real names you clowns! Or continue to show yourselves up.
Newmania or whoever you are (and I suggest Newmania as the same sentiment was expressed at Iain's by ... Newmania) ... it is disgusting to hang people. Full stop. And particularly disgusting to suggest it for a child who was and is very much a victim too. When they do it, or propose to, in Iran you no doubt think that is disgusting and uncivilized don't you?
Well don't you?
"And thanks to ranting fascist singular with multiple iDs or fascists plural for demonstrating so clearly how bullies and bruisers and those who know deep down they are wrong are COWARDS.
Use you real names you clowns! Or continue to show yourselves up."
You are relying on the representations of his slimeball lawyer
"In fact he is we're told completely rehabilitated and potentially someone who can make a contribution to reducing mayhem and murder in our streets. His charisma and power over others, apparently a huge problem in his former life, is now a potential boon to British Society"
And in typical drivelling left-lib style have elevated this scum into some sort of paragon.
Liberals wanted this cesspit "paradise of diversity", it should be them who pay the price of being stabbed by feral scum running wild - not decent people who never wanted this mad experiment in the first place.
Roger
In 2002 Sir Ian Blair said most muggers are black. In 1995 Paul Condon said that 70/80% of muggings were committed by blacks.
Liberals should be mugged, they wanted this hell hole, not decent people.
Roger
Oh what's this? A given name.
Evening Roger 17:44 and 17:57. Well done.
Obviously liberals as you call us do get mugged and murdered. Mr Lawrence was a liberal and Frances is too.
But grieving and angry of course and being wound up into a kind of eye for an eye mentality which does no-one at all any good. Least of all herself and her family.
The statistics you quote btw are to all intents and purposes LIES and useless lies at that as they are not even tied down to specifics. They don't tell any sort of full story. And they did not even say these things anyway. AFAIK.
Did you know that 90% of statistics are made up on the spot? Ha.
not out of the frame whatever she calls herself.
CHRIS PAUL
You are always saying I am lots of people .Sigh...I am one person , always newmania and still male of course
You seem a bit odd sometime Chris and I doubt I am the first to mention it. . Relax a little, you try too hard ,that sort of thing is creepy not clever.I mean .."Newmania is a girl".. dur hur dur hur ..dur hur yeeeesh. What sort of sweaty little fuckwit wierdo are you?Don`t be such a cunt mix with some human beings and stop trying to wreck Iain`s blog. Thats my advice you fucking child.
Against my better judgement, I still skim your blog from time-to-time, Chris despite the very juvenile reponses I had from you a few weeks ago. As I was staggered to see so many comments on this post (average is usually 0.23) I had to take a look.
You haven't improved have you? This attempt to demolish Iain Dale's post (comments over the 100 mark) was less than impressive. You are very mixed up aren't you? Trying to involve Thatcher and Major in your so-called analysis of why this particular stabbing occurred is frankly pathetic. And I don't hear any real sympathy from you for Mrs Lawrence and her four children who have to accept that the murderer of their father will have only served 12 years.
You do yourself and your so-called LOL a disservice by trying to make party political capital out of such issues.
Diablo: What are you on about? I take the time and trouble to walk Mr Dale through what I think with arguments and evidence. And you come over and simply offer no argument whatsoever. Just infantile insults. You must try harder.
The line about party political capital is really very very offensive indeed considering the way the Tories and worse are using it to batter the HRA which is - on the facts - the third and least important part of the issue in law.
Newmania:
Here is the substance of your post. The rest has been removed for these purposes :
I suggest you remove your own vile post from above. I don't want to touch it.
I am not "trying to wreck Iain's blog". What a ridiculous thing to say. I am engaging in a debate on the facts and opinions. I'm not sure he'd thank you for associating him with your comment.
Apologies for the "she", but who really knows who or what you are?
You claim to be a Tory activist and you have today called for the execution of children who commit crimes like this. You regularly go way over the top politically. Clearly I don't agree with you.
And you write in such a way as to undermine the whole of the tory blogosphere as nasty and stupid and did I say nasty? Same old same old.
When one of my regular trolls writes stuff at Iain's and an anon comes here and writes the same in similar form I must admit I speculate. If I was wrong, sorry.
But for the record you write like you are (a) giddy drunk or high (b) about 12 years old and (c) I'll leave it there for now.
The strength of your protest and your foul language here speaks for itself. Out of control. Losing the argument.
You should apologise for your behaviour IMO. Including to Iain Dale himself. He is respectable, honourable, has things to say, and mostly lives with the cut and thrust of different opinions and interpretations with good humour.
Chris Paul
"Obviously liberals as you call us do get mugged and murdered. Mr Lawrence was a liberal and Frances is too. "
One would hardly think she now qualifies as a liberal, since she fails to recognise that LC is "a potential boon to British Society." Bitter experience teaches.
"The statistics you quote btw are to all intents and purposes LIES and useless lies at that as they are not even tied down to specifics. They don't tell any sort of full story. And they did not even say these things anyway. AFAIK."
Well we don't have the statistics on ethnic crime, do we? The great and the good seemingly don't collect them, and if they do they are certainly not going to share them with the plebs. But sometimes the truth slips out, as with Condon's and Blair's comments. We hear that in cesspit paradise of diversity London there are 170 gangs. I would suggest to you that the large majority of them are composed of your ethnic friends.
"Did you know that 90% of statistics are made up on the spot? Ha."
A mindless, obscurantist, liberal drivelling comment. Unless there are statistics there is no basis for decision making. You are simply an ostrich, in absolute denial. And rather than a decent person, who never wanted your toxic ethnic stew, being stabbed, it should be you.
Roger
Roger
With your unwholesome huffing and puffing I think you have blundered up to and possibly over the limits of the law in your last comment.
Dear Jolly "Roger"
1. Frances Lawrence recognises publically that legally Learco has every right to stay in Britain. She understands that it is NOT the HRA which makes this so particularly, though it would be there as a third line of defence.
2. She is nonetheless hurting and scared (of her own runaway feelings) and angry too. But she is clearly one of us. A liberal. Not a fascist like you.
3. The "statistics" you quote are not statistics they are out of context, misquoted, mangled hearsay. At best they are numbers. They are numbers made into LIES. Being such vague lies they are slippery lies of course. You are libelling Paul Condon and Ian Blair also.
4. If you'd like to come back with links to your sources - in mainstream or academic publications please - then we can have the debate on e.g. "where are these statistics you promised", "in what ways are you putting words into people's mouths" etc etc
5. Criminals are not my friends. Whether they are BNP criminals or corporate criminals or youth gang criminals this goes. But the latter group are in my studied but humble opinion more victims than the middle group. With the damaged goods of the BNP and fellow travellers somewhere in between. With a lot more in common with other "others" in society than you would care to imagine.
6. The statistics line is a JOKE. You know. It's hilarious. It IS a made up statistic. SEE??
7. When there are next stabbings going round I shall push to the front of the queue.
8. What is your real full name? Where is your blog? Where should the police come to pick you up and the Chief Constables send their writs?
--
Please only come back here if you are prepared to provide arguments and evidence. Preferably provide those on your own accountable blog and simply pop a short introduction and link here and we'll come and take a look if we are interested.
You are as Skipper says exceeding your free speech rights and breaking the law in what you are now writing. You are still anonymous.
This shows up your weakness. Wake up, get strong and stop whining about things you cannot change. In particular stop your criminality spewing onto my blog.
Pull yourself together and get positive.
Chris P
"You are libelling Paul Condon and Ian Blair also."
LOL
So why haven't they sued the news sources which I googled up then?
In typical Orwellian fashion you demand stats when you full well know that, by design, they are not available. And that like in some cruddy Stalinist hole people draw their own conclusions, especially when two successive London police chiefs have let the truth slip
No talkboard/blog demands names/addresses - only an hysteric like you.
I have not threatened you, I have merely expressed the wish that, as per natural justice, it is you that gets stabbed by one of your ethnic friends and not a decent person. You could perhaps see it as reparations for slavery or whatever.
"You are as Skipper says exceeding your free speech rights and breaking the law in what you are now writing."
Complete rubbish
"Wake up, get strong and stop whining about things you cannot change. In particular stop your criminality spewing onto my blog."
Things will change, your toxic cesspit is not sustainable economically, socially or politically. It's going to utterly collapse. This government has no legitimacy anyway, how could when only 1 in 5 voted for it?
The military covenant is broken, General Dannatt says that our "Judeo-Christian" heritage must be retained. Rather than you being stabbed I would actually prefer it if you were put up against a wall and shot by patriotic forces, after some summary proceeding or other.
You don't understand how angry people are and how sick of the likes of you
Roger.
Chris Paul: These are the links FYI:
Paul Condon: Newsfilm.
Paul Condon again: Hansard (last paragraph of the first speaker's piece)
Ian Blair: BBC (fourth-last paragraph).
170 gangs: Telegraph
Now do you agree that an apology to Roger is called for?
"Ian": I note that you have had a blogger account for just a few days and that you are the same person, using the very same computer as the fascist troll calling themselves "Roger"!
Paul Condon - Newsfilm - a briliant example of journalists changing the story.
The presenter (Huw Edwards?) wrongly claimed that Condon was claiming :
"Most muggers in London are black youths."
What Condon actually said was - and this is displayed on screen for viewers and read out by a reporter - was quite different.
Even the reporter's incorrect remark was specific to LONDON, unlike "Roger's" assertion (which is therfore untrue) and rather than saying "most" it said "very many" and went on to specify the membership of another group ... young, excluded, unemployed.
I will blog about this shortly with screen grabs.
Following his REAL remarks Paul Condon pointed out the sensitivity of the information. Which you might think would have caused the presenter to take more care.
The late Bernie Grant MP made some measured remarks about what Condon had had to say.
And then the ever reliable Michael Howard - speaking as Home Secretary in with "mid term" elections in mind - rubbed his "something of the night" hands together and dog whistled the whole correspondence up into a lowest common denominator.
I'll not be apologising to "Roger/Ian" as you are both twisting half stats, and media coverage of them. But it is always useful to be reminded what a lovely party the Tories are. So thanks.
On Ian's Hansard link:
The first speaker was Mr Bernie Grant and his last paragraph does not add to your argument. Bernie does however mix up the stats a bit himself, showing how easily this can be done.
Ian Blair:
Not a direct quote. Dare I say another piece of media ineptitude glossing stats and speeches to say what they don't say?
Again if we track back the real quote it is of course about London and not about the UK as "Roger/Ian" suggest.
No apology there then.
The Telegraph piece is more biased and shoddy journalism. It does not particularly contribute to the defence of Roger/Ian's foul remarks and certainly not the calls for liberals like myself to be stabbed instead of er, liberals like Mr Lawrence who is the case in point.
Four media sources. Well done.
Four media sources supporting your earlier flip remarks and foul assertions? No, not really.
In LONDON and some other cities (as the fourth link includes) there are clearly problems with gangs of underclass lads (mostly lads) being in gangs and being bad.
A larger proportion of underclass lads are black than pertains in other social groups. This is at least in part due to institutional racism and denial of opportunities and the perception that a bit of ducking and diving with drugs is a valid way to go.
In previous generations these gangs and these violent characters - like Pinky from Brighton Rock for example were white working class youth. Pinky is a nasty piece of work and ultimately a killer.
This is not because he is black.
Oh no, he is "pinky", he is white.
It is very welcome that elements of the far right trolling on liberal blogs are willing to knuckle down and provide a few sources here and there. But the lack of care in employing this is very evident.
Well done for :
(a) using names, even false ones
and
(b) trying to back up your claims
But you've not been successful in this and because you have provided some links we are able to assess the strength - or in this case weakness - of your claims.
Which is not to say that Condon and Blair were/are fully competent in matters of presentation of complex situations to the press.
And not to say that the media - even the respectable media - were/are fully competent in matters of presentation of complex situations to the press.
""Ian": I note that you have had a blogger account for just a few days and that you are the same person, using the very same computer as the fascist troll calling themselves "Roger"!"
Quite, quite idiotic. To think anyone takes this blog seriously?
1. I'm at work, there are no Rogers in my office and certainly no-one by that name has been sitting here last week.
2. I have not been registered on Blogger for "just a few days", I have been so registered since December 2006, as a glance at my profile clearly shows. That's over 8 months ago for the hard of thinking. In that time I have run a blog under this name, SELECT Privacy.
This is now closed down but if you need proof it existed I refer you: here.
You seem to have worked yourself into such a lather over this that you have started to make people into who you want them to be to suit your argument. You lost.
I laugh at the idea that that this worthless creature is ever going to be an asset to any society. The powers that be may change his identity but I trust we will be informed when he goes to court for rape/attempted murder/mugging or whatever it turns out to be.
"In every progressive sense of the word "native" Mr Chindamo is a native Brit. He came here as a small child, he does not speak Italian"
But not in any real sense Chris. His British passport is just a bit of paper given out by the state. It doesnt make him one of us. (His mother should never have been allowed to settle in Italy, she and her little criminal should never have been allowed in here)
Lets try a thought experiment for the liberal/lefties - imagine Philip Lawrence as a black Jamaican born headmaster, Chindarmo as a white South African immigrant kid. Asset to society, deportation blah blah etc all sounding quite different now arent they.
As someone pointed out earlier in the comments you seem not to realise what thin ice you are on. Its only the power of the state that enforces this liberal process. The state forces us to accept undesireable aliens, forces us to adopt them as British citizens, forces us to accept them into our schools, forces us to accept their liberal treatment by the justice system and so on. Its profoundly undemocratic and when it all goes pearshaped you are going to have to get used to a lot of disappointment.
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