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Withington Selection: Supporters' Gossip
This post is now an outpost for gossip and nonsense that doesn't belong anywhere else.
Please keep it positive, legal, decent and honest. As always.
Wednesday, February 14, 2007
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63 comments:
If this is gonna work surely people must put their full names so their bona fides can be checked.
I agree with anonymous. Full and real names please. Though LoL do not have a membership list for the CLP and will not be checking bona fides there are others about who may do so. Are people struggling with 100-word limit? I will delete the duplicate 2.28 entry in a moment. It is quite hard to resist commenting on the submissions! But I'll be resolute on that.
test
Who would Leech want selected? Lets have views on that.
Lucy
Just a point and Chris delete me by all means but I feel the need to respond to anonymous's last pathetic comment.
Whatever wing of the party any of the candidates are on, I can hardly see any of them standing on the doorstep saying how much they love PFI or Iraq.
It just wouldn't make sense.
Addle:
Though anonymousies are breaking the rules of this particular strand which include using full names and not being disparaging - and could make the same points elsewhere instead - they are surely just picking up on an obvious point?
Whoever the members in Withington CLP select will get a certain amount of scrutiny by the press and the public but it will be what John Leech's people can find out via Google, Westminster links and gossip, links on the ground wherever that person has been active recently, and whatever other means are at their disposal.
They will then pick on some of these things and exaggerate, distort and fib to squeeze our vote in their direction, keep their Tories onside, and try to make some of our voters stay home.
This is not even particularly snide or unfair. It is what political people sometimes/often do when it comes to a serious campaign.
Most candidates would not go blagging about PFIs or Iraq but it is the other parties' job to bring these things up if applicable and try to save their man. There are a limited few scenarios in which they might succeed.
Our job as responsible Manchester Labour activists is to choose the most robust and sustainable candidate, the best future MP, the best asset for Manchester Labour city wide and beyond, and so on and so forth.
I am going to have a think about what to do with this strand. Only Jeremy Dear for Jenny and John Hacking for Nargis have actually followed the rubric. I have no idea who Leo for Lucy, Sarah for Jenny and Steve for Nargis are but I think their posts are OK and add something to the debate.
It doesn't do to call anonymous "pathetic" on their POV and their argument. It is just that. But they are secretive tricksters (plural, probably) and that is a bit pathetic really.
On your last point let's assume that any disappointed Labourists were well behaved and united round the selectee. Leech or the Tories or someone or other would start with whatever characterisation they chose, and that would be in play ever after.
Not quite sure that's what anonymous meant Adele. There's no doubt that when you talk to voters who switched to Leech last time large numbers of them view themselves as on the left and saw Leech as an antidote to "New Labour". Leech picked up on this -although we all - quite rightly get all aerated about hte Christie hoax - in fact Leech's campaign focussed a lot on the war and on branding Keith as "Tony Blairs man".
Leech is planning to position himself to the left of Labour.picking someone from the right of the party would be madness
I sort of get what you mean Chris but not entirely. All I'm saying is I think that you would be unwise to discard a candidate because they are on a particular wing of the party. Take Frank Field in Birkenhead. He has got a solid majority and did well as a minister until Brown started playing silly games.
Er, Birkenhead and Man Wit? Does not compute. Now it's you suggesting we have a Frank Field-a-likey in the field??
No one is suggesting discarding a candidate Adele. Not at this stage anyway. But eye's wide open is a good maximm.
Would Leo, Sarah and Steve please get in touch with real full names? idea at poptel.org.uk.
Anonymous 1:20 am. Welcome to the blogging at dawn crew. However, it's "its" not "it's" - please pay attention.
Doh! Pay attention Chris. It's "eyes" not "eye's" anonymous. Grocers not grocer's. Please pay attention.
I'll have to tell you about the Labou Students connection to Frank Field at some point Chris. It'll make you laugh!
Adele
Which London people have been ringing students in Manchester telling them to vote for Lucy - or never think of a career in the Labour Party?
No point in denying it. I have sworn testimony.
If this is the case then we are in the grip of another No 10 stitch up. I don't know if it is, but I think we should be told. Why are people from London ringing students in Manchester telling them to vote for an Ultra Blairite like Lucy Powell. I can't imagine. Give us the facts Senator.
Chris,
Can you get someone to confirm or deny this or get it deleted.
The student who told me said none of her/his friends would talk to him/her if he/she was known to be consorting with the enemy.
But I believed her/him.
As I was not up in the early hours blogging and have just looked at my email alerts I have just found this exchange.
The allegation appears to be that person or persons so far unidentified in London have been telephoning "students" (version 1), or "student" (version 2) also so far unidentified (and seeking to protect their anonymity for fear of reprisals).
This person or persons is alleged to be recommending that if they know what's good for them in terms of a New Labour career they will back Lucy Powell.
Anonymous 12:41 am has asked me to get someone to confirm or deny this or get it deleted.
Can someone from the party making this allegation identify themselves and somehow confirm this like Anon 12:41 has requested.
Or can someone from NOLS or LP HQ please issue a categorical denial?
Or can someone from Lucy's machine provide a categorical assurance that if this is going on it is not at anyone involved with their team's behest?
My view:
Both NOLS and LP HQ are known for control freakery and attempts to influence members. I've heard of attempts to get students to drop contact with Compass or face consequences. Which may or may not be good advice, but it is out of order.
Recent votes for NEC rep and for NOLS itself have involved what seem to the bystander to be vicious campaigns with some students even going off line, moving their blog presence and so on under what they see as harrassment.
More locally there have been a lot of reports of behind the scenes and open manipulation which certainly goes beyond the spirit of the process, if not the rules. Those involved have certainly included people who are supposed to be the custodians of a fair and open process.
I know this as there was an attempt by such a person to browbeat me into removing a link from this blog which they considered prejudicial to their favoured candidate.
I persuaded the person whose page I linked to to take down pictures of two candidates (nothing to get upset about I might add) which had not been there when I linked.
And there has obviously been calls for and actual excruciating tactical and negative voting, including against a clear union policy requirement.
Not to mention some monstrous stretching of truths about locality and political positioning.
Finally:
- If this is true I would recommend the complainants to contact RO and make it formal.
- If this is true there is no evidence that the candidate concerned has any involvement and I'd think that would be highly unlikely. It may be a lone NOLS careerist acting alone if it happened.
- Loyalty to the current control freaks is no guarantee of advancement as there has been a mighty rumour of a changing of the guards in the near future.
- If this is true there is surely absolutely no way for the control freaks to know how student delegates are voting - unless the room is CCTV'd which seems excessive and unlikely. So relax.
I am not going to take these possibly slightly scurrilous posts down at the moment. This is a lively blog not a newspaper of record.
But I will gladly publish proofs, further accounts, denials and explanations.
Advice on how many students there are in the selectorate and how many of these are planning to be Prime Minister by 2025 would also be welcome and might help gain us a sense of perspective.
Chris
The "student" who told me said that
"students" had been lent on.
I was probably wrong to use the formulation "vote for Lucy" in my first post. The "advice" was support Lucy and certainly don't help anyone else's campaign.
The energy of some students could have been useful.
Adele is surprisingly silent.
Re the CWU - the whole political machine is being very, very cautious and taking the view that they need to be seen to support the establishment to have any influence later on.
That was the logic for nominating Lucy - she is likely to win so we need to be in her camp to have any influence.
I believe Billy Hayes is taking the same line on Gordon Brown.
Thanks Senator JMcC
So you're saying it IS students plural but at this stage it is about not giving open support for any other candidate?
The process of backing the alleged likely winner has always struck me as a rather strange but very real phenomenon.
When things are tight it can amount to a self fulfilling prophesy if the hundreds of members involved in the selection were all to buy into the mythology, rather than reviewing the candidates on their merits.
Ther are of course a number of cases of hot ante post favourites NOT winning. Where would that leave the craven ones? Surely we must accept other comrades and colleagues' views as this unfolds and then all unite behind the winner without emnity, repercussion, or malice?
And surely the CWU centre would want a TU friendly candidate and the voter who swayed it by one vote was surely acting on personal beliefs rather than on direct orders from Billy Hayes to fix it for someone not ticking their boxes?
Best w
Chris P
The identity of Sarah has been disclosed. Will anyone now identify Leo and Steve please?
I think I'll be moving the valid endorsements to a different page when I get a chance and re-labelling this post "Rumours, conspiracies and scurrilous gossip"!!
Any other suggestions before I do this?
Miles : That extra round of Chorlton leaflets is here ready and waiting for your attention. Thanks.
Naheed : Apologies that we were not available yesterday to speak with you when you arrived. My fault, I should have made a different arrangement.
Yogesh : Thanks for your cards today.
There is still one Chorlton round up for grabs. Do I really have to do it myself when there is a selection race going on?
Senator JmCarthy: If you are who I think you are, you really should have more sense.
My email address is shestheone31@hotmail.com if there is anything specific that you need to ask me, rather than complete gossip.
All I will say on the matter is this. No one joins the Labour Party to be a Government cheerleader. Anyone who is involved in NOLS is doing it because they want to make a difference and fight for social justice and believe that a Labour Government is the best way to do this. That really is all you need to know!
Does it not occur to you that some people are in politics not to smear their opponents but really do just say what they believe and believe what they say? Thats how its always been with me anyway.
Personally I couldn't give a shit about a career. Most people at the age of 19, 20 couldn't and its a bit sad thats how you think of us.
Adele
So you are not denying that Labour students have been leaned on by London types to support Lucy?
It'd be a bit weird if Labour students weren't being leant on by London types to support Lucy - They're trying it with everyone else
Good to see Nargis'letter in todays South Manchester Reporter - nice clear statement re oppostion to war and trident in response to previous letters asking for candidates views.Any reason none of the others chose to respond?
Will Nargis be going on the anti-trident demo on Saturday?
Chris
You should declare on the blog that if anyone else asks you to remove anything you will report the conversation with names.
Take no prisoners.
I haven't sent a letter to the South Manchester Reporter because I haven't had time - been busy trying to support NUJ members!
My views are simple - No to renewal of Trident, it is a waste of money, and against the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; and we shouldn't have attacked Iraq, and should now be withdrawing troops (although apparently Blair now agrees with me on this one - knew he would come round eventually!). I won't be in Burnage on Saturday morning because I will be on a coach to London to join the protest. I know a few people have demo fatigue, but I think it is important for us to be there, saying what we think. Blair has effectively said this week, that we haven't had a debate on Trident because he forgot! I'm not sure how that is possible when there were so many contemporary resolutions to LP conference on the issue. Perhaps his forgetfulness is why they all got ruled out of order.
This doesn't bode well for your candidature if you can't do your job and write a letter to the SMR at the same time. Many of us manage this week in week out and we are not aspiring to be a PPC.
Jenny,
Only you can make the decision as to whetherour chances of beating Leech and ridding Burnage of the Lib Dems will be better served by you being on a demo in London (which is already being covered by coach loads of others from Manchester) or working in Burnage in a time limited campaign where every hour of every persons time can make a difference.
Seems a bit self-indulgent to me.
Thanks anonymous.
I normally can do both - but since the SMR didn't arrive on my doorstep until late on Sunday (unusually), I literally have had no time to reply. We are actually short staffed at the NUJ, something which fortunately won't be a permanant situation.
As for the self-indulgence of going on a demo, well firstly interesting choice of words. There is nothing self-indulgent about having a hideously long week, then getting up at 6am to get a coach to London. Campaigning in Burnage, and in other areas of the constituency will always be important, and I spend an awful lot of my spare time doing that, but so is standing up for what you believe in.
By the way, the campaign around Trident is also time sensitve. A decision on whether or not to renew will be taken soon.
Message to anonymous 1.09 p.m. and anonymous 1.13 p.m. - probably the same person judging by the snide tone.
As Jenny says, she is covering two jobs at present, hence her lack of time. She has also been out leafletting across the constituency and turned out in Burnage last time, when most other candidates did not.
The fact that she manages to do two full-time jobs and gets out to help with local campaigning more than demonstrates that she has the drive, commitment and energy to be a good representative of the people of Withington.
As for self-indulgent – what b*****ks. Do you really think that Jenny missing one round of leafletting in Burnage is going to make that much difference to Labour beating the Lib Dems in Burnage?
Don’t you care about Trident, and the fact that the government want to renew it without any consultation and against the nuclear non-proliferation treaty?
Politics is about more than beating the Lib Dems in Burnage, and frankly Trident is more of a threat to our lives than John Leech!
It seems to me that if you oppose Trident taking part in the demo is a better use of time than handing out leaflets for a pro-Trident party!
And before you say I am self indulgent I spent this morning leafleting in Chorlton.
I'm very happy to do a Burnage round one day next week.
I also think that candidates who can get 100 percent time off to campaign are not living in the real world and that will not help them to connect with the electorate.
By the way anonymouses do you get off on bullying young women from a cloak of anonymity? It's not very impressive.
Jenny: Schoolboy (sic) error over 'fessing SMR delay. Try instead: Good to wait to see what occurs in first week and storm in this week. Plenty of time on those coach rides to get something in congratulating Nargis on her position and reporting from Trident demonstration!
Annoyingmousies: 'Bout time you lot got out from behind the iron curtain? The Trident demo is not a moveable date whereas an hour or two can usefully be put in in Burnage at various times with the same sort of effect.
Isobel: Please re-consider and retract your last statement. Trident is pretty bad, but it's not scaring cancer patients to death.
Miles: Many thanks for taking that very onerous Chorlton Round. I count that as points for Jenny's team on the campaign front.
Naheed: We've now had two out cards when we've been in. Which doesn't work too well!! Sorry.
NOLS: We've heard nothing direct on their participation or otherwise in 'phone canvassing. But we hear indirectly that there is a denial. Also denials in from two suspect teams on raising the matter. Surely not the old double bluff?
Chris
No
Last comment for today.
Chris, I don't think honesty is a schoolboy error. I have always believed honesty was a strength when many just see politicians, from any party, as people who lie and are only in it for themselves. I have been spending my time supporting NUJ members, not just because it is my job, but because it is what I believe in. Essentially helping others is what drives me to be a trade union organiser, and to be involved in politics.
I agree that Leech was totally out of order with his scare-mongering about Christie Hospital, but maintain that Trident and nuclear weapons are a greater threat.
I never accused NOLS of phone canvassing.
I said Labour students in Manchester had been rung from London and told Lucy was the candidiate of the party high-ups.
They should support her/not support others if they wanted to get anywhere in the party.
That has not been denied here.
Isobel - I know. I was not being entirely serious. But scaring cancer patients is a terrible thing to do. Failure to apologise makes it worse.
Jenny - You simply didn't have to say anything about SMR.
Senator - who is supposed to deny it? Someone in London? 7m people at the last count.
Only Nargis and Naheed out in Burnage today - We know why Jenny wasn't but what about the rest and did those unable to attend offer to take a leaflet round or two ?
Of the five currently nominated Nargis is the only one who has been on a ballot paper and won.
John
On that basis you should select John Leech.
He's done it in Withington too!
Or maybe Margaret Thatcher. She's done it loads of times.
John
On your blog you criticise Leech for sitting on a council in his constituency.
Yet you big up Nargis for sitting on a council 200 miles away.
She is even on the cabinet.
Three jobs Nargis versus two jobs Leech.
Erm... as far as I'm aware neither J Leech or M Thatcher have been currently nominated. Although I hear it was a close call in Old Moat when someone spoke up for Maggie in the open section.
As for having three jobs, I assume Nargis would stand down from the cabinet in Hackney if/when selected to be a candidate and as a councillor if subsequently elected as an MP.
If we get into a situation whereby you can't be considered as a candidate if you've got a job already then heaven help the Labour Party. Bring on the independently wealthy, bag-carrier generation of MPs!
The cockneys are rattled again.
LoL have decided to leave the latest example of contorted lib-demmery localism this time with the faintly ridiculous non-cover story "vote green".
Cllr John Leech MP could hardly attack along these lines. Unless he is a total hypocrite that is. He is? Well we can fix him for that, can't we?
Doing so would draw the electorate's attention to the fact that he is doing and still plans to overlap a serious job representating local people in Chorlton Park with that of representing a much larger group of people at Westminster. He might even stand for council again in 2008 as a fall back.
The fact that he is neglecting his ward is shown by his own web site's deficiency in mentioning it.
Leech will have been doing this for three years AFTER becoming an MP. While struggling even to do that latter role properly, frayed at the edges, grouchy and irritable, tilting at windmills.
Leech can hardly criticise someone doing a bit of councilloring possibly YEARS before even standing as a westminster candidate. He would look Soooooo bad if he did that.
Now, please no more of this bogus or even real localism. Greens can have airmiles and foodmiles but enough of the candidate-miles meme already.
Just cut a couple of more comments. Cut it out! It is tedious. The degree of naivity now being displayed by the investigative ones is gruesome. Will you never learn? Apart from where you candidate lives what are they good for? Sounds like a cue for a song.
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